Rob: Hello and welcome to the Property Edge podcast where we discover the tools, the tech, the AI and the perspectives that are giving South Australian real estate leaders their edge. Today I’m delighted to be joined by a real local leader. Luke Holden is the sales director of OC Ouwens Casserly here in Adelaide. Welcome Luke. 

Luke: Thanks Rob. Great to be here. 

Rob: Thanks so much for joining. I’m really excited to speak to you today. Can you just give us an overview of who you are, your background, and then a little bit about OC as well? 

Luke: Starting with OC, we’re an independent agency located here in Adelaide, with several of what we call hubs and spokes. We’ve got approximately six geographical offices spread across Adelaide. We’re selling approximately from a residential space between 1300 to 1400 properties per annum with a specialist division that specializes in projects and a substantial rent roll that we’ve built over time. 

I’m the sales director and also a partner with Nathan and Alex in the business on both property management and sales. My primary function is more revenue orientated whereby I oversee the sales entity and all the agents, but also take care of new business within property management as well. 

I still dabble a little bit with sales. It’s always good to keep your toe in the water and your finger on the pulse. I still do auctions as well. My primary role is really in the development of our people. I play a role in mentoring and coaching some of our staff here internally, developing talent internally, as well as assisting with what we call the onboarding and boarding process of people as they come into the organization. 

I really see agents here at OC as our customers, our clients. My role and my team’s role is to empower them. That can be through not only their development but also the tools and systems and processes and procedures that we put in place to really underpin and help them to succeed and achieve their own goals and aspirations through property as well. 

Rob: What I love to hear you mentioned just before we started recording is that you’ve got a history in software and so you get the tech space really well. So how are decisions made in the software space at OC? What sort of process do you go through? What’s your tech team like? 

Luke: I have a very unique background. I left school early and went into IT in the UK. Learning initially into the hardware and infrastructure side of things, but that developed into software engineering. To roll the clock forward, I ended up living in Australia, setting up a business in Sydney, working with approximately 15 developers across the country, developing software for advertising companies. My role was to go in there to sell the product, consult with them and then develop the product to suit the user’s needs. I have an extensive background. I’m still certified with Microsoft. 

That’s really assisted in my role now where after selling real estate for a number of years in both Adelaide and interstate, it’s given me a really good appreciation and understanding of functions of a sales agent. Fundamentally we call it the OC way. There’s like a 70 percent underpinning of tasks or things that every agent needs to do – they need to prospect, they need to lead generate, etc. And then you’ve got the additional 20-30 percent individual flair that we never want to change because that’s what makes everybody unique. 

My role in terms of decision making here within OC is really how we can provide greater efficiency within the organization, how we can take a holistic approach fundamentally around the customer across all aspects of the business. 

We have an external data consultant that purely works alongside myself and my team to make sure our CRM is set up correctly, that we can run repetitive scripts to clean that data so we can get the best use of any systems we’re using. We also have a tech specialist in terms of systems within real estate that’s really at the forefront of development and products worldwide. So we get insight in terms of what’s happening internationally as well as nationally. 

Then we have a business consultancy that sits across our property management and sales. We really try to partner ourselves with the right people that can help us make best use of our tech stack across our organization. 

One of the fundamental roles that I identified we really needed was an implementation specialist. We actually have somebody in the business that purely specializes in assisting our agents in terms of the adoption of systems and software. But more importantly, customising that journey for that agent so that the software suits them, not the other way around. 

With any product we bring in, we need to make sure it facilitates the fundamentals but also allows that 20-30 percent flair. The implementation specialist will align themselves with an agent. We call it the boarding process here at OC. We’ve got the onboarding, which is when somebody comes into the business, they learn about all the people and the organization. But it’s the boarding process that usually lasts for 6 to 12 months in making sure all the infrastructure around that individual is set up in a way to help them succeed. 

Rob: I just find that really interesting the way you’ve put it. In a lot of the conversations we have with agencies and other businesses, it’s always about onboarding team members to understand how to use the tech and use it the company way. And you’ve gone the other way saying we want the tech to facilitate the way the user wants to use it. That’s a really different way of looking at it. And I’m sure you’re seeing better success with that too. 

Luke: Absolutely. Since that role was created, we’ve seen a greater uptake in all systems. The change management control we have here has significantly changed. I think the day when a system becomes available or a product available and you just switch it on – it’s unreasonable to expect an agent to just sit there and configure the system to work for them. 

It’s not just about flicking a switch. Let’s put this plugin into our CRM and expect an agent to facilitate that. The natural flair of an agent – they’re more people-based people. We work in a relationship-based industry. Tech people at times don’t share that same profile. 

What we need to do is ensure our tech stack reflects the agent and not the other way around. That’s where you get better buy-in, better integration, and better implementation within the organization. As opposed to leaving individuals to configure for themselves, let’s really assist them and drive that for them. It’s not about taking control. It’s just making sure it’s set up in a way that suits and reflects the individual. 

Rob: There’s one issue that we all have – so many subscriptions start adding up and your monthly or annual fees start to become a little bit eye-watering. So how do you play that area? 

Luke: Definitely the cost of doing business is getting more expensive, and that includes technology. We went through a period of consolidation within our tech stack over the last 2-3 years. We’ve gone from probably 8-9 products and really pared that down so we’re probably just using 3-4, but we’re using them much better and starting to see the output. 

In terms of decision making process, we definitely look into the usage of individual products because it will do two things. One, have we done our job well in terms of implementation of that product and what do we need to reflect? We’re constantly trying to review and reflect on what we can do better. Secondly, do we actually need to hold some more workshops? Are the skill sets of these individuals not at the level we thought? Do we need to pair it back? Can we actually accelerate the pace? 

We have a library within our infrastructure of various training courses which relate to the various products we use. We ensure people are progressing through those courses so at the end they’re extremely competent and know exactly what they’re doing. 

What we’re seeing internally is a significant increase in the adoption of the products we’ve implemented. But more importantly, from a sales perspective, we’re seeing that correlate into actual sales, listings, and appraisals. The greatest way to bring a salesperson on a journey is to justify what you’re bringing in for them. We’re now starting to show evidence of significant increases in inbound appraisal requests that we’re generating through our tech suite, and that includes listings and sales that we’re being paid for. 

Rob: So in other words, show me the money and I’ll follow what you do. 

Luke: That’s the mentality of most salespeople. The best way to bring them on the journey is justify how that’s going to have a positive influence on their wallet. 

Rob: That’s OC creating these tools, is it? 

Luke: We call it the OC way. It’s a library of tutorials and training workshops that we’ve developed internally, which is teaching the agents how to use or adopt the product in their own way. It’s a suite of courses that we put together ourselves internally. 

Rob: I noticed that you’ll be opening a Goolwa office in about a month’s time. My guess would be that the new team down there, they’d all be given access to all this stuff now and be jumping in, going through those videos, trying to understand the OC way so that when it opens, they’re up and running, but they probably already are up and running, aren’t they? 

Luke: They’re definitely up and running and already hitting the goals. It depends on the individual. We find some individuals respond better from face to face and some are comfortable working through loom videos or reading through tutorials. My implementation specialist is just down there constantly helping the team, ensuring we’re bringing them up to speed. 

They’ve obviously been introduced into OC through people in culture, the marketing department, etc, and then they pass through into our channel, which is the implementation specialists in the sales space. We’re making sure we’re getting them up to speed and making sure the products suit them well in terms of how they pitch for business, how they follow up, how they are prospecting etc. Our implementation specialist is down there on a regular basis to bring them up to speed very quickly and we’re certainly seeing the effects because we’re already hitting the ground pretty hard there. 

Rob: Perhaps you might give us a bit of a walk through your tech stack. If you’re happy to name names, name names or don’t, not fussed, but also how you connect them all together. 

Luke: The connection piece is sometimes the most challenging to be honest. Fundamentally we always start with two CRMs – your sales CRM and your property management CRM. There’s a variety of products out there for sales. We use Agent Box. PropertyMe in the property management space. We try to ensure we’ve got some sort of connection between the two. 

For example, if you were one of our landlords managing five properties under OC and I meet you in an open inspection, I really want to know about that because you’re a really important client to OC. We’re working very hard on that connection between all aspects of the organization. 

Again, fundamentally, any decision we make is all around empowering our agents and everybody else in the organisation. For me, it comes down to that customer experience. We’re really looking at how tech and our tech stack complement and improve our customer experience. 

Then you’ve got the peripheral services that have a two-way integration to these various CRMs. In our sales space, we have a lead generation tool and communication tool that sits across the CRM, uses the CRM and presents it to an agent or presents it to a client. We’re one of very few agencies to the best of my knowledge that now communicates to the client, be that a buyer or seller, based on information relevant to their search or journey. 

We actually have people in our system tagged as upsizers, investors, first home buyers that go through a journey with us to educate them on that journey. That comes from the agent in the CRM. It’s communication that’s automated, but from the agent to start building and developing that relationship. 

If we meet a buyer that has certain criteria, we’re actually only letting them know about properties that are relevant. We’re not mass mailing our database anymore. From that, we’ve seen a significant drop in unsubscribes in our ecosystem. 

Again, tying it back into that customer piece, the communication piece to the customer and the lead generation tool for our agents. And then we have a product suite that allows our agents to have an end-to-end experience and the customer as well when they sell a property. 

From pre-listing, presenting for the business, following up for the business to actually listing the property and doing that electronically, to selling the property, taking offers electronically, bidder registrations electronically, streaming online, finalising an auction, click a button and generate the contract of sale. 

We have an end-to-end product suite that I believe we’re the only company in the nation at the moment using it most effectively. We’ve heavily invested in that space and made sure it’s customized to a certain degree for our OC way. I’m aware of properties that have had 40 offers placed all online, and my question to the agent was, did anybody say anything or have any difficulty doing that? The answer was no. Brilliant, because that’s what we want. 

By having this integration, we immediately create efficiencies. I called an auction last weekend. We sold the property at auction, at the click of a button we were able to convert the bidder registration into a contract for sale. We’d finished a contract for sale within about three to four minutes. We’d usually be sitting around the table writing it all out. 

That’s one of the most powerful products we have that just enables our agents to stay focused. It’s just in two or three dashboards, but more importantly, it’s creating better efficiencies across the whole organization. 

Rob: That’s brilliant. And something that’s a bit of a theme ongoing – it’s the use of tech to create efficiencies so that agents can do what they do best. That 30 percent that we were talking about right at the beginning, as opposed to trying to do too much customer stuff that might get in the way as opposed to actually benefiting the journey. 

Luke: That’s right. Just to jump in – the important bit is that the tech products we use are by no way to replace the relationship piece, which is the most important piece in the whole journey. What they do is provide more meaningful information either to the customer from the agent in an automated or semi-automated fashion, or make the agent aware of information that may not necessarily be known to them that will help that client on their journey. 

None of the products we’ve developed or invested in has any intent to take away the most important critical piece – the relationship. It’s more about empowerment. 

Rob: Speaking of that relationship, my next question is about ecosystem. So you have your own first party ecosystem where you know who they are, they’re in your CRM, you talk to them direct. And then you have those paid for ecosystems or third party ecosystem, like realestate.com. What sort of benefits are you providing to the public to get people to move from that paid for ecosystem into your own ecosystem? Because if I’m looking for a house, I’m not necessarily just looking for an OC listed house. I’m looking for a house in a specific area that has specific characteristics. And so I will probably go to that third party first. How do you get people to come to you first? 

Luke: That comes down to a number of things. It starts with a relationship. The relationship is only valuable if it provides value. We need to make sure the value we’re providing to the client is what they expect. I think we’re also in a climate where expectations have significantly changed. 

We’re constantly trying to think ahead about that customer journey. The customer is the most critical piece in the whole jigsaw. To prevent you from going to other sources and third parties or even potentially other agents, I need to make sure I’m providing the most meaningful relationship with you and providing information that’s relevant. 

That kind of comes back into our earlier conversation – I need to make sure that on your journey, I’m providing information that’s relevant. Otherwise, the relationship won’t build. You won’t have trust in me that I’ve listened to you and care about that journey and want to help you get there. 

First of all, it’s about the relevancy and quality of the journey we take you on. No agency is going to sell every property or lease every property. But through our ecosystem and communication channels, I could let you know about prospects that suit you. You’re still receiving communication from me though the property isn’t being sold by me. 

We’ve got to let them know about prospects. Did you see 123 Smith Street available? It’s the same principle, but alerting our people to make sure they’re notifying individuals of prospects that could suit them. Everything comes back down to the customer. 

To prevent you from going to other third party ecosystems, we need to embrace those other ecosystems and work out how we can integrate them into our own, again bringing it back into that customer journey and relationship piece. 

We have a product that will let us know if I’m working with you and you’re considering selling your home but have to buy first, I can set up your criteria. If a property comes on the market suiting that criteria and not with me, I can get notified. So I can reach out and say “Hey Rob, I’ve seen this property. It’s not on the market with me, but it’s 250 meters away from you. Have you seen that? Maybe it’s worth having a look at over the weekend.” Just that connection goes that one step closer to strengthening the relationship. 

Rob: Something I want to pick up on – you just said about customer personas. Can you dive into that a little bit and explain what that means in your business? 

Luke: Not everybody is the same. Not everybody we’re meeting on the weekend is the same. Everybody’s on different journeys, has different needs and different timings. The simple concept of upsizing or downsizing, investing, or buying your first home – those are the four simple personas you can look at. There are sub-personas below those as well. 

Once we know more about the individual and their journey and timing, we can tag a contact in our CRM with that persona. We have access to a whole array of blogs and communications and media channels that can provide communications about that journey. That includes things like rate changes and their impact, talking about stamp duty and its effects on first time buyers, transfer fees. Are these the things you’ve considered? We start providing information and topics consistent with that journey. 

If I have somebody flagged internally as a first time buyer, they’re not going to hear from us about downsizing – they’re not ready. If we meet an investor actively looking in the Adelaide marketplace, we can take them on another journey, tell them how great we are at OC about looking after that investment. We have various personas or customer journeys in our ecosystem that enable us to communicate on a one-to-one basis or on a more meaningful basis. 

Rob: Wish list for future tech or data capabilities. Is there something out there, a piece of data, something about consumers or customers, something about properties, something about listings that you don’t currently have and that you wish you had? 

Luke: I think this is probably where AI is going to come in the future. We see ourselves as potentially an agency that will possibly lead this. AI can provide a role in productivity, but more importantly around the communication piece. 

From a communication piece, communicating to our consumers and clients with relevancy – that’s where AI will play a part. I could send out an EDM to 1000 people, but while the content and message will be the same, the delivery of the content could differ. That’s possibly where I see a gap – making sure the way we communicate to certain individuals can fluctuate based on where that person is on their journey. 

From a holistic point of view internally, we’re already developing this as more of a bespoke tool. I feel it’s going to be difficult to do this from an industry perspective because not everybody works the same. What we’re trying to do is integrate into a very visual platform what our agents just need to do daily or weekly. 

We have an internal AI bot at OC that sits in our ecosystem that any of our people can chat to about our policies, procedures, legislation, and it gives quick answers straight back. AI is very intuitive – you’ve got to train it in the right way. If we know more about our customer and where they’re going, we can start communicating with them in a more one-to-one specific way. 

I think in the future, the 1000 letterbox drops or the 2000 EDMs we send out will change massively and we’ll start communicating to people on a more one-to-one basis as opposed to just mass basis. 

Rob: A final question – AI is something that does scare a lot of people as do new tech tools. How do you get people who are reluctant to use tools to use them? 

Luke: Great question. I think a lot of people are fearful of change. Too much change too quickly can be very scary. We very much believe here at OC in a plug in and plug out principle. With everything we do, we don’t position it that you must do it this way. If we have an agent that would prefer to work with pen and paper, that’s cool. 

We have agents in our business on different journeys with different lifestyle aspirations. We need to make sure we facilitate their needs, not the other way around. We try to position the benefits of adopting any new product, whether that’s AI or any new system. We even have a committee within our sales space – representatives of agents nominated by other people to sit as a conduit between somebody on the floor and the leadership team. 

Change management is absolutely critical. Sometimes the best way to bring people on a journey is through proof. We need to show the benefits and have internal case studies of how systems or AI has helped an individual. Sometimes you get to the point where the people who are reluctant to change get FOMO, and that’s when they start becoming more embracing. 

Everything at everyone’s pace. It’s not like we’re walking in day one saying this is the way you must do this. On the contrary, we’re saying look, this is where we could see the industry going, this is where we see consumer needs going. We’re going to provide you an ecosystem and infrastructure to do that. If you want to get on the train now, great. But if you want to come on later, that’s cool by us as well. 

Be respectful of every individual in your organization. Start small and use case studies and social proof to help justify and bring people on the journey later. 

Rob: Luke, we might leave it there. Thank you so much for your insights today. I think the team here at Property Edge at Land Services will be really interested to dive into this podcast. You’ve created a lot of interesting perspectives and learnings. To the people listening, thank you for listening today. If you do like what you hear, please do visit propertyedge.app to learn more about this podcast and also our property research platform. Luke, thank you so much for joining us today. 

Luke: Pleasure. Thanks for having me, Rob. 

Rob: Thank you. And thanks everyone. We’ll see you in the next episode. Bye bye.